Saturday, July 25, 2009

Jury Deliberation - Day 9: Fri 07/24/2009

The jury is in day nine of deliberation.
In case you missed it:
Wednesday, July 22nd one juror was dismissed and replaced with an alternate.
Friday, July 17th, one juror was dismissed and replaced with an alternate.

Friday, July 24th 6:55AM PST:

When angry count four; when very angry, swear. -Mark Twain

We have our squad of helicopters ready to go for Jurywatch Day 9. Did we mention the Ninjas? We WILL tell you whether the jury foreman likes mustard or mayo on his sandwiches. (His freaking sandwiches, if you're very angry.)

Make sure you check out Friday's Artwork over at Patient Advocate's site!

Friday, July 24th 11:20AM PST:
According to Trapellar, who checked with the court clerk at 9:30ish, the jury is in deliberation.

Friday, July 24th 1:30PM PST:
Our Ninja squad was not able to spot the jury at all during the lunch period today, so we have called off the black helicopters. Weinberg, on the other hand was seen lunching on the square. Probably milling about hoping to influence some of the jurors with his charming bile smile and rapier shit. wit.

Friday, July 24th 4:07PM PST:
The court clerk indicates that the jury is still deliberating. No news is... no news.

It is very likely that we will not make it to court in time once the jury has reached a verdict. Once the jury has reached a verdict, it can be as little as a half an hour between the time that we will get a call and it is read in court. We will post as soon as we have confirmation of verdict.
Courtroom 2L
Superior Court Clerk's office: 650-599-1170
ayres' criminal case number:SC064366


  1. Perhaps they're getting close to a verdict. Or a hung jury. My guess is the former.

  2. According to the first dismissed juror, at the beginning of deliberations, one of the jurors wanted to convict on the battery charges. When she stood firm for the felony convictions,the other juror agreed with her and now wants to convict on the felony assaults.

  3. Sean, Judge Freeman's assistant, has very nice hair.

  4. Jury is currently in deliberations again right now, according to the court clerk.

  5. Patience, patience. Think of what it must be like if you are a juror and want to be able to get on with your life. I think they will really try to convict today. If there isn't a verdict today, I predict a hung jury.

  6. Any predictions about when the jury will come to a decision is just reading tea leaves at this point. Remember, the newest juror has only been deliberating for two and a half days. She had been away from the case for almost ten days and would not be up to speed on the evidence.

    We have no idea what will happen.

  7. "I think they will really try to convict today."

    By what perversion of justice would a jury be predisposed to "convict"?

    By what whishful thinking would 8 jurors (7 remaining after blue eyes who “suddenly recalled” that she was molested 20 years ago—yea sure-- was dinked for misconduct) favoring acquittal suddenly change to a guilty vote?

    Is not going to happen--not today or any other day.

    NEWS FLASH: You are grown up men now. You had family and personal problems long before you met the defendant. It is time you stopped blaming someone else for everything that is wrong with your own lives and took personal responsibility and moved forward (or not)—but that is in you now. In addition, take it from me—because I have lived it—as legitimate as your anger may be, you must let go of it before you can ever be happy.

  8. Remember, rule of thumb is for every five full days of testimony, expect a day of deliberations.
    With all of the juror replacing we've gone through, we've got to remember that. Give the "new" jurors time to get up to speed.
    We want those convictions to stick.

  9. Very rude and heartless, Anonymous. I would wonder why you are on this blog at all. Maybe you should start your own and go away.

  10. Dear 12:03 Anonymous: I don't know what planet you live on, but you need to consider the fact that you are very out of touch -- not only with your own feelings, but also with reality. Good luck with your repression and rhetoric.

  11. NEWS FLASH: You are grown up men now. You had family and personal problems long before you met the defendant. It is time you stopped blaming someone else for everything that is wrong with your own lives and took personal responsibility and moved forward (or not)—but that is in you now.

    News flash! Looks to me like these men have taken responsibility for their lives and then some!

    I don't know anybody who doesn't have some family issues (if they are being honest), even Ayres has a daughter who is missing in action. Hollywood loves to make movies about dysfunctional families, and people flock them to because it makes you realize there is something so normal about a little dysfuntion within a family.

    There are even legitimate medical and psychological problems that could be helped by therapy, but not if you go to the doctor and get molested and violated!

    Imprints of everything in your life whether good or bad will leave a memory imprint on the psyche.

    Cast the blame where it is due. If your family is robbed a gunpoint would it be wrong to blame the robber?

    Victims of a crime have the right to blame the criminal!

    Move on, do you think Sharon Tate's sister will ever stop going to Charles Manson's parole hearings? I wouldn't if it was my sister and her baby buried in the ground!

    There is a certain amount of perseverance that every crime victim walks away with.

    This is not lack of responsibility, it is the burden of knowledge, prevention and awareness! A heightened sense of not letting this happen to someone else's child.

    Responsibility, who was protecting these boys when they needed it? Not mandated reporters or other doctors. What is the count on victims, around 41 or 42.....

    Yeah someone needs to take the responsibility, but not the men.

    I hope they get some kind of help for the damage that has been done to them that will last a lifetime! Things get better with PTSD but the thing is you never when that will be or how long it will take, but it is never 100% gone.

    That is my perspective and yes I do know something about placing your trust in the hands of a doctor only to be victimized. It is almost twice as bad because these "doctor criminals" are professionals, it wasn't a chance encounter with a robber, they knew you, you were already at an advantage and vulnerable.

    Think about it, this was a premeditated crime. Equally hard to believe a doctor would premeditate ruining your life.

  12. I realize the moderator wishes to let everyone speak, but the heartless comments made about the victims make me pretty angry.

    You can't judge the rest of a person's life and say they are losers or bad people, and then say get on with things and ignore a traumatic event.

    I hope the person who wrote that comment falls into a situation where heorshe is blamed for the person they are and disregarded for a legitimate complaint over an injustice received.

  13. Family problems? The 10 men who testified weren't delinquents (when they first saw Ayres). They were normal pre-adolescent and adolescent boys who did what boys that age do and have problems many boys that age have: Learning difficulties from ADD/ADHD/dyslexia; self-esteem problems; minor aggression problems (probably a consequence of the ADHD). Heck, one was referred for enuresis!

    We don't know what kind of boys were treated under the juvenile treatment program, but one can assume that is where the really troubled boys were. We can also assume some did not escape a nice physical exam, either. Hasn't Ayres been quoted somewhere (a deposition perhaps?) about how working with the "dangerous ones" really floated his boat?

    Perhaps their parents would have done things differently today (hindsight is 20/20), but what walked into Ayres' office is a far different human being than walked out of there after his "physical exam."

    Go speak to some of the survivors' parents. They'll tell you just that. "$3600 to turn my son into a victim all those years ago." Try to walk away and believe they are liars, too.

    This is not like the McMartin preschool case. None of these men were prompted as to what to say with anatomically-correct dolls. Anyone who minimizes their suffering is subhuman and heartless. Period.

  14. Dear July 24, 2009 2:23 PM:

    Better the fate you curse me with then to be falsely accused of a terrible crime.

    The truth is that Ayre's getting 1,000 years in the slammer is not going to change your lives one bit.

    These events were from 10 to 30 years ago. If you don't find a way to move on, you will always have a nice excluse for not moving on with your lives, but you will never move on.

  15. I wonder how much Whiney bills to hang out at the courthouse ...

    Nice gig if you can get it!

  16. "The truth is that Ayre's getting 1,000 years in the slammer is not going to change your lives one bit."

    If that is what you believe, then what is the purpose of ANY perpetrator of ANY crime getting ANY punishment? Do you think that Eichmann should have been allowed to live out his days in Argentina?

  17. “Nice work if you can get it?”

    Many criminal attorneys charge a flat fee for representation through trial, in which case they get nothing extra for waiting on a long in coming verdict.

    Some charge by the hour and the fee arrangement can vary from cases to case.

    In any event, Doron Weinberg has been (most likely) ordered to stay within 1 hour of the courthouse and on call by telephone so he pretty much has to stand by on location.

    I have jury tried over 100 cases to verdict. Waiting on a jury verdict is the most unpleasant phase of any jury case because, unlike during trial, you are completely powerless to do anything more to affect the outcome. It is and always will be for me a gut wrenching wait and it is for the prosecutor as well (not to mention for the other stake-holders in a case, including the defendant and the victims).

    Walk a mile in a trial lawyer's shoes, please, before you criticize. That is an apt expression, because I have walked hundreds of miles (literally) around various courthouses in CA waiting on juries. And it ain't fun. Not even close. I would rather do almost anything else.

  18. "Walk a mile in my shoes....."

    If they have diamonds on the soles of them from your trial defense lawyer money, maybe,

    If they are Kleenex boxes like Howard Hughes wore, I'll pass....

  19. True enough, people should try to "move on" with their lives, but letting a molester go unpunished is not the way. If these men didn't have a conscience, then maybe they could "look the other way", but it took a tremendous amount of courage to expose themselves to this kind of scrutiny, in the name of bringing justice and closure to the victims, including themselves.
    I happen to know the man is guilty, because my son was one of the recipients of a "physical", and he complained to us, his parents, at the time. To our continuing guilt, we didn't believe him. He subsequently told his wife the story some 15 years ago--long before any of this came to light. So--don't dismiss these brave men as just "complainers".

  20. Dear July 24, 2009 3:07 PM:

    Ayres being punished if found guilty of the 9 counts with which he is charged is not what I was addressing in my comment.

    If he is guilty as defined by the jury's verdict in this case he should be punished.

    That has nothing to do with his former patients blaming Ayres for everything wrong in their lives for the last 10 to 30 years.

    Nor is Ayres being acquitted or convicted going to move you forward into a better life. Only youn can do that by letting go and moving on. (I did not say forgive.)

    On your point (which was not the point I raised) I have given a great deal of thought to the cases where a person is finally apprehended much later in life for a crime committed in their youth, whether the Nazi prison guard at 18 who is now 85 with a family and grandchildren living in Queens or Sarah Jane Moore (who 30 years after her SLA involvement was a doctors wife and soccer mom.)

    In once sense, these people are no longer the people they were in their youth, and in another sense, they did commit crimes.

    It is not an easy moral analysis. (Eichman had to be hanged, though. He was evil then and evil when he was caught by the Israelis and executed.)

  21. Anonymous July 24, 2009

    12:03 pm. Your information is false about the first dismissed juror and I have seen you repeat the same thing on another blog.

    If you read the reports, you will see that the juror never said she was molested. And indeed she was not. She was able to thwart the advances of the medical professional.

    And for someone who is lecturing other people on being happy, you sound like one of the angriest people I've heard from in years. I mean - really, really angry. Could you possibly be someone who knows Ayres who is angry that the victims "screwed" up your life ?

    And really, how would you like it if you were a child and you were anally penetrated by a psychiatrist digitally?

    You seriously need some anger management classes. And some lessons in compassion.

  22. To anonymous who keeps harping about victims who need to "move on."

    I suggest you go straight to Barnes and Noble to the sex abuse section. Go ahead. There are at least forty books on the subject. There are several by a psychologist in Minnesota by a man named Mic Hunter who has written about men who have been sexually abused by boys. Read the books and get back to us.

    You could also use a huge dose of spirituality and compassion towards others. Have you no sense of empathy toward people who have been hurt? And if you are Solveig - or someone close to her- I want to know why you are so harsh on the victims? It was Ayres after all who worked on the Practice Parameters for Children Who Have Been Sexually Abused. I have a copy of that. Nowhere in that lengthy paper does it say anything about victims who should stop blaming their problems on abuse and move on. The documents talks about treating sex abuse victims with compassion respect and gentleness. It urges psychiatrists to get children to talk about it.

    I am pretty speechless at you anonymous. Your anger is scary... Sounds like you're about to explode.

    Try some self-awareness and look inside to see why you are so angry. This sounds intensely personal for you.

    The question is:why?

  23. All child molesters should be punished.

    Period. That's why law enforcement like the FBI has devoted huge resources to catching them.

    God bless the victims. I wish them no more harm for the rest of their lives.

  24. Quote: "In once sense, these people are no longer the people they were in their youth, and in another sense, they did commit crimes."

    Same could be said for the victims, they are no longer the innocent children they were and they did not commit the crimes.

    But it could also be said that Charles Manson is still the same and no matter what it is not going to bring back the people he killed.

    So what, I want him locked up in a shit hole because that is what the law requires.

    I don't care if you become a rocket scientist in prison after 40 years you still deserve to be there for what you did.

    What other incentive do we have in this society to stop criminals? A free pass for old farts, a senior discount, brownie points for changing.....nah, a mattress and three pices of bread and water will do fine!

  25. With all due respect, suggesting (as others have on this site) that I should be anally raped (and see how I like it) is angry.

    Raising ligitimate points for discussion is not.

    And how many ways do I have to say it?

    I said "If Ayres is guilty as defined by the jury's verdict in this case he should be punished."

    How can you read that statement as arguing he should be let go?

    Finally, as amazing as this may be to some of you, there are not only two or three people in the world who disagree with you (all realted to Ayres).

    I have never met the man.

    In any event, have a nice week end. I intend to.

  26. To anonymous July 24, 2009 12:03 pm:

    If you feel so strongly about male victims of sex abuse, I dare you to go over to www.malesurvivor,org and post your comment...

    Oops, too late. I already did. We expect a huge backlash there about what you said.

    See here:

  27. Jury is still deliberating as of 4:07 pm today Friday July 24

  28. People who tells others they need to "Move on" or "Get over it" are ignorant and don't have a clue what they're talking about.

    As a male victim of sexual abuse, I can say that truly part of the healing and recovery process is confronting your abuser if you it's possible. I'm unable to do so at this point in time, but if someday I can, you better believe I will.

    Rule of thumb number one: Idiots abound out there and they LOVE to spew their ignorance for no other reason than it gets them attention.

  29. That has nothing to do with his former patients blaming Ayres for everything wrong in their lives for the last 10 to 30 years.

    How did you come to such a conclusion?

    In any case, your denial of the impact of trauma is interesting. While I agree that individuals are ultimately responsible for resolving their own issues, I do not agree that such resolution is possible by "putting it aside." Quite the contrary.

    If you are injured, you need to tend to your injury...else your risk infection, abscess, possibly even death.

  30. Wait a minute!

    Deep Sounding told this commenter he wanted to come over and shove something up this commenters ass and then told him to “fuck off” (bold letters omitted) and you are calling HIM “the angriest person you have ever met”?

    Project much?

  31. I am truly disturbed by the judgemental, sarcastic and apparently heartless comments of "anonymous, 12:03". I gather you have not yet found your peace or happiness in life.

    You say that you have "lived it", so "take it from me" and "let it go so you can be happy". I would think that someone who lived it and let it go would be more compassionate and less judgemental towards others who have lived it and are still dealing with the fallout, and still in the process of letting go.

    It is my understanding that a child who never tells about a violation to his body, or isn't sure at the time that it was a violation, until looking back on it with an adult perspective, or a child who did tell someone but was not believed at the time, will not even begin to process it until adulthood. Until then, a child takes all responsibility for what happened and sees himself as "damaged goods" and blames himself or herself for having "caused it" to happen.

    Let's put responsibility in its proper place. The adult perpetrator is responsible for the crime committed against the child. When the child becomes an adult, and processes what happened to him/her as a child, taking responsibility includes bringing the perpetrator to accountability. Whether justice happens or not, the victim, who is now an adult, is obviously responsible for his/her own life and the rate at which they let go and move on.

    Who are you to say that the victims who testified against Dr. Ayers are not taking resposibility for their lives by stepping up to the plate and speaking out? Who are you to accuse them of "blaming someone else for everything that is wrong in your own lives". It seems to me that these young men are taking responsibility for their lives. Clearly, you do not believe the process of others, who have "lived it" to be up to par, or even legitimate. You apparently don't believe the blue eyed juror who had a memory surface from 20 yrs ago. Who are you to judge her memory as true or not? And why would you characterize the consequence of dismissal from the jury after her memory surfaced and she reported it to the jurors in support of the victims as being "dinked for misconduct"? Her memory disqualified her, it was not misconduct.

    My biggest question to you is,if you have truly "lived it and let it go", why would you lash out at the men who have stepped up to their responsibility by testifying in court, disrupting and exposing their own lives in order to do the right thing, and defend someone who positioned himself in his practice of child psychiatry in such a way that he had zero accountability to anyone and total access to children, "examining" them however he pleased for "medical reasons", considering himself more reliable and/or thorough than the children's primary care pediatricians and specialists, with no follow up results ever given to the parents or the other practitioners?

    Were you even in the courtroom? Did you even hear any of the testimony? What information are you basing your opinions on? Do you know there are at least 41 others who did not testify? Do you know about the books and pictures of nude boys in erotic poses that were not admitted into evidence because of improper search warrants? Did you hear Ayers himself testify? Did you not see for yourself the controlling, arrogant nature and bizarre, inappropriate behavior?

    Maybe you should examine your own thinking process a little more carefully before speaking out against the young men who testified and their families.

  32. What did you do go on a coffee break DS?

  33. It sure seemed like a long break

  34. I take it the jury is home for the weekend and deliberating will resume on Monday?

  35. Someone mentioned that the attorney needed to be no more than one hour away from court...

    The day the jury went into deliberations, the Judge instructed the attorneys to be no more than 20 minutes away.

    Defense asked for 30 minutes for Ayres which was approved.

    So unless that was changed...

  36. So that means Weinberg can only go home on the weekends? Those Four Seasons bills must add up fast.

  37. I have never seen anyone who was more in need of a therapist than "Move On" Anonymous. That poster sounds as if he or she is just parroting something they were told as a kid when something went bad. From their hostility, it sure sounds as if they are running from some very bad memories.

    Behind that anger of Anonymous is fear, plain and simple.

    Doesn't Anonymous know that victims of sex abuse never want to deal with it? They try to "move on" by drinking their memories away or other self destructive behavior. What you don't deal with can kill you.

    The subject of sex abuse has hit a raw nerve in Anonymous - whom I believe is a member of the Ayres family or coterie.

    Why on earth would anyone post here with such hostility if they didn't have a personal interest in the outcome of the case?

    Best wishes to the victims.

  38. Anonymous 6:53am:

  39. The comments from "Move on" Anonymous have all the earmarks of a Stephen Gianelli manifesto.

    For those of you who don't know, Gianelli is a lawyer from SF who appears to be in love with Doron Weinberg. He was notorious for posting irrational and nutso comments in defense of Phil Spector on the LA Times and LA Weekly and Blogonaut blogs. He was always being called out by bloggers for his irrational comments.

    Gianelli doesn't know what he's talking about. We do wonder how he has time to post comments on blogs all day long. Does he actually work?